Imagine I said something pithy here to get you to click through, I am having too many feelings to be pithy?
Summary
Ahsoka Tano (Rosario Dawson) is trying to break into the town Calodan on Corvus where Magistrate Morgan Elsbeth (Diana Lee Inosanto) is essentially holding the villagers hostage. Din and Baby Yoda land on the planet and are welcomed into Calodan, but no one will talk to Din, and he’s invited to the magistrate’s home by Lang (Michael Biehn). Elsbeth tells Din that she needs his help killing a Jedi, and offers him a spear of pure beskar as reward for the job. Din doesn’t agree to the terms, but leaves the impression that he’ll do it, setting out with the information he needs. He finds Ahsoka and tells her that Bo-Katan sent him. Ahsoka spends some time with the kid and tells Din that they can connect via thoughts, and that she knows his true name—Grogu.
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She says that Grogu was being trained at the Jedi Temple during the Clone Wars, but he was taken from there when the Republic fell and has been in hiding ever since. She tests his powers the next morning, but Grogu isn’t too keen on using the Force; he’s has to hide his abilities for decades and the only person he really trusts is Din. Ahsoka refuses to train him—she believes that his fear and attachment to Din are too similar to another Jedi she once knew, Anakin Skywalker. Din tells her that the magistrate sent him to kill her, but that he’s willing to help her take the regime down if she’ll get Grogu the training he needs. Ahsoka accepts his offer, explaining that Elsbeth’s planet was destroyed during the Clone Wars, resulting in her allegiance to the Empire and her work destroying other planetary resources to build up the Imperial Navy.
The two form a coordinated attack against Elsbeth’s forces, and Din holds Lang at the gate in a standard one-on-one draw. When Lang tries to pull a fast one after indicating that he’ll set down his weapon, Din kills him. Ahsoka and Elsbeth have a duel in the magistrate’s garden, beskar spear against Ahsoka’s lightsabers. When Ahsoka wins, she demands a location on Elsbeth’s “master”—none other than Grand Admiral Thrawn. The rightful town official is reinstated, Governor Wing (Wing Tao Chao), and Din goes to retrieve Grogu and hand him off to Ahsoka. She again insists that she cannot train him despite the terms of their agreement. But she has a different suggestion: that Din take Grogu to the planet Tython where there is a ruin of a Jedi temple, place him on the seeing stone there, and let Grogu choose his own path. She says that if he reaches out with the Force, another Jedi might arrive and train him, though she notes that there are not many Jedi left. Din and Grogu set off for Tython.
Commentary
HI, IT’S AHSOKA, EVERYONE, GOOD MORROW TO AHSOKA TANO THIS IS LITERALLY THE ONLY THING I WILL TALK ABOUT FOR THE REST OF THE DAY.
This episode is written and directed by Dave Filoni, the man behind Clone Wars and Star Wars: Rebels, and damn does it show in every frame. Filoni started out in animation departments for shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender, and adores Star Wars with a fervor that is palpable with every story he tells. His greatest asset creating narrative in this universe comes from understanding Star Wars’s visual strengths better than anyone alive. Many visuals from this episode look and feel very alike to the finale of The Clone Wars, which aired this year and was similarly gorgeous, particularly in frames centering on Ahsoka. It’s like candy for people who can see the through line, so much mood infused into each shot, incredible set ups, silence and stillness countered with flurries of action and light. It’s deeply impressive to see Filoni get the chance to overlay his eternally cinematic sensibilities onto a live-action canvas with a story he wrote using characters he conceived years ago. And this is a true full-length episode because it needs to be—the mythology to which it’s contributing is too vast.
Okay, so now we’ve got to do a brief detour for those who didn’t watch Clone Wars and Rebels: Ahsoka Tano was Anakin Skywalker’s Padawan during the Clone Wars, and the single greatest addition to the Star Wars universe outside the original films. (I said it. I meant it. I’m not taking it back.) She was a great foil for Anakin and also an anchoring point—one that was lost when the Jedi expelled her from the Order after she was framed for an act of terrorism against the Jedi Temple. She was eventually exonerated, but when given the chance to return to the Jedi, she opted out. Ahsoka rightly saw that something was wrong with the current system, and couldn’t in good conscience rejoin their ranks. Nevertheless, her lightsabers were returned to her by Anakin, and she was with a legion of clone troopers when Order 66 was executed. Later on, she became an informant for the fledgling Rebel Alliance by the codename Fulcrum. She helped the crew of the Ghost many times in their missions against the Empire, and offered up sage and helpful advice to Jedi Kanan Jarrus and his own Padawan, Ezra Bridger.
Following the events of Rebels, Ahsoka and the Mandalorian Sabine Wren went on a journey to look for Ezra, who was possibly dead, but appeared to have been flung to some unknown corner of the galaxy… along with Imperial mastermind Grand Admiral Thrawn. So this feels like a set-up for a whole other series here, possibly one where we get to see Ahsoka and Sabine looking for Ezra. Which is a definite possibility because there have been rumors that Lucasfilm is looking to cast Ezra as we speak. And if they wanted to give me that show, I’d be very much obliged, thanks.
It’s almost impossible to imbue a live-action character with the level of fluidity and motion you can get out of animation, but they clearly tried their hardest here and it comes close, particularly for a character as skilled as Ahsoka. It gears up as it goes on, with the first few fight sequences trading more on mood and atmosphere (and doing so beautifully with that switch-off-the-lightsabers-in-the-fog move), raising the stakes as it continues. The pinnacle comes in the showdown between Ahsoka and Elsbeth, which is hilariously juxtaposed in the far less impressive showdown between Din and Lang. (And am I pleased that the only high-noon-esque scenario we’ve gotten from the show thus far was completely overshadowed in this way? You bet, I am ecstatic.) I feel the need to point out that this is the very first live-action fight sequence in Star Wars history that takes place between two female characters. The first, and currently only, example. It’s taken nearly forty-five years to get this on screen. For any other examples, you’ll have to head to Clone Wars and Rebels.
With Ahsoka, they are clearly trying to assure fans that this is the same character they’ve been loving for over a decade, and to that end they’ve employed a lot of excellent cues: Dawson is definitely pitching her cadence closer to the animated character’s delivery; we have her trademark sense of style and dramatics, her pointed and simple wisdom; there are even postural indicators, like the point where she loses her second lightsaber and responds by drawing up a fist, which was a signature stance of hers. It was always enjoyable to watch Ahsoka fight because she has a lot of moves that are purely her own, but she also has a lot of Anakin in her style, and it’s great to see those moments show up. Her history bleeds through in everything that she does. It’s also bemusing to see that she’s stopped correcting people on the Jedi thing—for a while she’d stop people from identifying her as such, since she was kicked out of the club. She seems to have given up that particular fight.
Moving on to get excited over the fact that Baby Yoda has a name now! I can stop calling him Baby Yoda! But also now we have to get into the thing that I didn’t want to get into from the first episode, which is—how does Yoda’s species age? Because Grogu seems to be roughly a toddler, but he’s got to be at least thirty-ish, and possibly as old as forty or fifty years old. Which… unless their species ages slower when they’re very young, that doesn’t quite work with Yoda’s age when he dies at all. Sorry, it’s just gonna bug me. I do appreciate that this gives some explanation as to how/when/why Grogu is using his powers. If he’s accustomed to hiding them for survival, it makes sense that it’s only happening in situations where he feels safe (when he’s alone with Din) or when he feels he has no other choice (when their lives are in danger).
But of course, the real question here is more about the overall arc of this series and where it’s trying to take us in the long run. It’s upsetting to hear Ahsoka giving Din the usual Jedi dogma against attachments, particularly because she’s more aware than anyone of what truly caused Anakin’s downfall—the fact that the Jedi system doesn’t really work. Moreover, she watched Kanan and Ezra accomplish a great deal together, and saw their attachment to each other and their little found family enable them toward great deeds. But it’s entirely likely that she’s telling Din all this toward a different end; she sees how much Grogu has grown fond of his Mando dad. It’s possible that this is her subtle way of saying “You know, he’s your kid at this point. Might be time to make peace with that and stop trying to offload him.”
After all, she’s got a point—there aren’t many Jedi left out there. Who’s going to train this kid? Unfortunately, the most obvious answer (being Luke Skywalker, of course) would be a death sentence for Grogu, since we know what Ben Solo will eventually do to Luke’s students. Maybe it’s time for Din to acknowledge that the kid is right where he belongs.
Things and Asides:
- Ahsoka says that she only knew one other of Grogu’s kind, referring to Jedi Master Yoda. Which is blatant Yaddle erasure, and I will not stand for it. I will not.
- Ahsoka Tano was voiced in the animated shows by Ashley Eckstein. It’s probable that Dawson was cast in part because she’s a big name (and Ahsoka is a major role for the universe) and in part because she was an early fan cast for the role when the possibility of live-action came up. There were photoshops of it and everything.
- One of my favorite things about Din Djarin is that he’s usually very good at keeping things under wraps in front of people he doesn’t know—telling Lang that Grogu is something he just carries around for luck is a master stroke in that class.
- Michael Biehn is a well-known character actor who is probably best known for the role of Kyle Reese in The Terminator. Diana Lee Inosanto is an actor who also does a great deal of stunt work, and has appeared on shows and films like Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Star Trek: Enterprise, Blade, The Fast and the Furious: Tokyo Drift, and more.
- There has never before been an on-screen suggestion that beskar can deflect a lightsaber’s strikes because that’s supposed to be nearly impossible for any material. I’m not sure how I feel about it here, to be honest. Not sure I like it. There are other energy weapons that Elsbeth could have used that have already been shown in combat against lightsabers, is my point.
- Ahsoka’s lightsabers used to be green—the current set are white because their kyber crystals (the thing responsible for powering lightsabers) came from Sith blades. According to the current canon, Sith blades are red because Dark Side users essentially “break” their crystals to bend them to their will. Ahsoka found two crystals from Sith lightsabers and “healed” them, resulting in her dual white blades.
- There is an owl-ish creature looking over the scene as Din goes looking for Ahsoka. This is Morai, a convor that looks after Ahsoka. It is essentially a spirit guardian that is connected to a figure known as the Daughter, the embodiment of the Light Side of the Force. During the Clone Wars series, the Daughter actually gives her life-force to Ahsoka to bring her back to life. (It’s complicated…) After doing so, Morai often appears wherever Ahsoka is.
So now… off to a Jedi temple ruin? See you next week, everybody…
Emmet Asher-Perrin really needs them to get on that other possible series because they want to see Sabine Wren in live-action right very now. You can bug them on Twitter, and read more of their work here and elsewhere.
This episode played like a classic samurai movie. Zatoichi would have fit right into this story.
Once again, I want several of the end credits paintings.
I don’t watch the show, don’t have Disney+, but I may have to subscribe soon once my finances improve, so I can see this. Big Ahsoka fan, big Rosario Dawson fan. She really is an ideal choice for the role; certainly Eckstein will always be the definitive Ahsoka, but she doesn’t have the physical build or look to pull off the adult character, while Dawson is a near-perfect fit. I’d really like to see this.
One thing, though — is it me, or are her montrals (horns) considerably smaller than they were in Rebels? It’s rather distracting. They’re supposed to grow longer as a Togruta ages.
And yes, the idea of a solid material being able to deflect lightsaber blades feels wrong. I’ve seen cases of hyperdense materials that resisted being cut, but nothing that could completely block it.
Okay, first, I kinda get why maybe some fans may not be thrilled that the series is now taking a deeper dive into the mythology (in some ways even I kind of enjoyed it being its own thing) BUT AHHHHHHH! I was screaming at several parts of this episode.
The episode, was first of all, gorgeous. OMG that shot of Ahsoka and Grogu by the moon. I want a print of that.
But I have thoughts!!!! In some ways I wish I’d had no idea that Dawson was cast, or even that Bo-Katan hadn’t name dropped her because HOW INCREDIBLE would that reveal have been? I mean, it was still incredible.
Also: TYTHON!!!!!!! I am pretty sure in at least the Legend EU it’s basically the birthplace of the Jedi.
I have so many thoughts about Ahsoka’s rationale for not wanting to train Grogu (I knew you’d have something to say about it). On one hand, it’s a little sad to me that she’s still kind of taking the hardline attachment stance which I really, really want to see evolve (insert my rant that the sequel trilogy DID NOT EXPLORE THIS with Luke’s Jedi). Anakin’s problem wasn’t that he had attachments, is that he had no coping mechanisms for them. On the other hand, in a way it does make perfect sense that she knows she is not the one who could train him (as she is a product of that same system), that she has her own fears (irrational, possibly, but still real) due to what happened Anakin (similar to how Yoda does with Luke) not to mention you get the impression she’s got her own quest right now (WHICH BY THE WAY I REALLY HOPE LEADS US TO EZRA AND SABINE. I was not aware of that bit of casting news, btw).
And maybe in a way she IS breaking through that training – she recognizes she’s not just going to tear apart Grogu and Din and that would NOT be good.
On the other hand, I am glad it didn’t totally turn into ‘I repudiate the Jedi entirely and every single thing they stood for’ because I’m not as anti-Jedi as some commentators are. I think their teachings (and even beliefs on attachment and fear) have some merit, they just need to be more…balanced (no pun intended). And Ahsoka may just recognize she is not the woman for the job. It was actually kind of interesting to me that she never denies being a Jedi so perhaps she’s made her peace in some way (and she still seems to think of Yoda fondly, even after what happened in the Clone Wars – although in Season 7 I did get the impression there was at least SOME potential for reconciliation). I won’t belabor this as I’ve ranted at length about it but I never loved the rationale for Ahsoka leaving the Jedi; I would rather it have been about a more principled stance regarding something like use of the clones, their being complicit in the war, or her own evolving ideas on attachment. I really hate false accusation tropes though, I guess (namely, the whole trope of the character doing things that the viewer knows aren’t suspicious but totally appear suspicious to the in-story characters for good reason).
Now, I’m really wondering if Luke’s Jedi will show up. Timeline wise, do they exist? Does Ashoka have an opinion on them? (Another thing I was also kind of worried about is that it would turn into Ahsoka basically putting Luke’s Academy down because in a lot of her stories, Ahsoka tends to be The Best And Most Right At Everything). I would love to see them portrayed with some depth (assuming it’s not just to show them as being completely flawed/incompetent) especially if it DOES go into what Luke is trying to do since he himself has flouted Yoda’s teachings on attachment. On the other hand, knowing their fate might make the whole thing too damn sad, not to mention doomed to failure (UNLESS they establish that somebody escapes, which would also be awesome). Honestly that could redeem a lot of the sequels for me, ha. People talk about how Filoni redeemed a lot of the prequels for them, and I already loved them, but maybe he will redeem the sequels for me :) Bonus points if lil’Ben is there learning advanced healing techniques and the concept of full self-sacrifice, even if he scoffs at them at the time ;)
OKay, speaking of Ahsoka always being The Best, I kinda loved that Elsbeth gave her a bit of a run for her money (although it did seem inconsistent given that in other episodes Ahsoka holds her own against Maul and Ventress) and I have to wonder if she was holding back just a bit given that even if she is an amazing duelist, it seems like there are many Force techniques Ahsoka could use to totally incpacitate her. And YES, I was totally stoked when I saw them both disrobing and knew we were about to get a girl on girl action scene.
I actually thought the Din/Lang showdown was AWESOME and a perfect use of the high noon trope and a nice juxtaposition. As soon as I saw Mando appearing to release the grip on his blaster I was like, ‘oh, no, don’t do it!’ but of course he too knew what was coming :)
ALSO! I saw the owl :) :)
And yes, both my husband and I were like WHAT ABOUT YADDLE! I don’t think she shows up in AOTC though so it’s possible Ahsoka didn’t know her.
Musical stuff:
-AHSOKA’S THEME is used!!!!!! Seriously I geeked the hell out over that SO BAD. Another really beautiful orchestration by Goransson
-A snippet of Yoda’s theme is also used as she reminisces about Yoda; very subtly woven in. So, that’s 3 potential Williams references so far (March of the Resistance, Yoda, and maybe Kylo Ren’s theme (for the First Order) if we count that little bit in The Experiment that plays over the throat singing. That also could be considered a musical reference, although not really a theme)
-I still really want to hear his take on the Force Theme. Hopefully he is saving something like that for a big moment :)
– Michael Biehn! Good to see him again. You know, he happened to be in another one-on-one duel with Val Kilmer in the movie Tombstone.
– It would be cool if the show runners continued this trend of casting 80s action stars (see also Carl Weathers) by bringing in Jeanette Goldstein next season. Pretty please?
– Grogu is around 50 years old. It was stated in the pilot episode. The IG droid also pointed out that different species age at different rates.
– I like that there’s a people besides the Sith who can stop a lightsaber. Always felt the Jedi were a tad too powerful.
@2 – my husband ranted at length about the size of her montrals :)
I actually thought it WAS canon already that beskar could deflect lightsabers (or, at least were a little tougher to cut through), but maybe that was an old EU thing I’m misremembering.
@2 / CLB:
[Dawson] really is an ideal choice for the role; certainly Eckstein will always be the definitive Ahsoka, but she doesn’t have the physical build or look to pull off the adult character, while Dawson is a near-perfect fit.]
Yeah, I wanted to see Eckstein follow in the footsteps of Katee Sackhoff and bring her character into live-action. But I do think you’re probably right about why they went with Dawson.
Though I also don’t envy Dawson, either, and the pressures of taking on this role. Ahsoka’s very much the breakout non-Saga character of modern Star Wars. The only other character that comes close, if not eclipse her, would be Grand Admiral Thrawn.
Ekcstein’s performance helped create Ahsoka and set the standard that any subsequent actress must match and honor (in the same way everyone playing Harley Quinn is judged against Arleen Sorkin’s performance in Batman: The Animated Series).
@3/Lisamarie: “And YES, I was totally stoked when I saw them both disrobing and knew we were about to get a girl on girl action scene.”
That line sounds totally different out of context… :D
On attachment, I think there’s a tendency to misunderstand what that means, including among Star Wars writers. Letting go of attachments, in Buddhism, doesn’t mean you can’t have relationships, just that you let go of attachment to the illusion of need, of your fulfillment in life being dependent on material possession or tangible reward. Anakin said explicitly in AOTC that Jedi can love as long as it’s purely selfless. What led Anakin to the dark side wasn’t that he had a relationship, it’s that he had an unhealthy and possessive one. So Jedi teachings on attachment aren’t incompatible with having close bonds.
@6/Mr. Magic: “Though I also don’t envy Dawson, either, and the pressures of taking on this role.”
I think it’s a fangirl dream come true for her. And she’s an accomplished actress and a big name in her own right, so I think she’s up to the task.
As for Harley Quinn (weird — the board let me copy and paste the first two quotes but not a third), I think maybe there’s a younger generation raised on the games that considers Tara Strong the definitive Harley, given how often she gets cast in the role in various animated productions and even in voiceover in the Arrowverse. And Margot Robbie certainly seems to have made the role her own in live action.
The Jedi system did work though. The only reason the Jedi were brought down was because Qui Gon’s death guilted them into breaking the rules and making an exception for wee Anakin. Yoda even said, at the end of TPM, that he didn’t want Anakin trained, but was overruled by the others. If they had stuck by the old system then Palpatine would never have taken over. You cannot claim the Jedi system didn’t work, when the entire takedown of that system was caused by them breaking their own rules in the first place. If anything, it is just proving the rightness of those rules and system.
Also, Ashoka is trending Darthwards herself. All that talk of anger and fear and possessiveness she saw in Anakin, she demonstrates all of that in this episode. Especially the fear, only with her it is her fear of connections and loss that she is displaying very openly. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny, and all that, and Ashoka is on that path. Darth Tano is waiting in the shadows. Mind you, maybe she’ll luck out and whoever takes over from Filoni in the next generation will only have her as a burned out old hermit somewhere. Perhaps she undergoes some genetic modification to become Mika Grey from Resistance. I’m hoping we get to see her go full on Darth though.
You can be Jedi, or be Sith, but Grey? Nah, that is something the Darthward trending force users say to try and sell their corruption of the force and their principles to themselves.
@7ahahahahaha! Yeah, I realized as I was writing it, ‘this might have some other connotations’.
Anyway, I agree with you on attachment (and Anakin’s failing) 100%. Which is definitely why I wanted to see the concept explored further, because the Jedi we see in the prequels have taken it to a huge extreme (to the point that Anakin had almost no hope of learning HOW to form healthy relationships).
Although (sorry, due to the moderating I can’t get to my initial comment), I do think Anakin’s line in AOTC (which is one of my favorite lines) is also about how in general Jedi aren’t supposed to have *exclusive* attachments of the type romantic relationships typically are. And I’m not completely opposed to the idea (although I can see an argument for there being different ‘grades’ of Jedi, some who marry and some who don’t and both being legitimate) because it can be very difficult to balance being a servant of all (who, yes, should love those that they serve and come into contact to) with the very specific obligations something like marriage can represent. FWIW it’s a little like what I’ve seen with priests in my life. Some clearly just don’t know how to form healthy relationships in general, but I’ve also known several who make it a point to make sure they have healthy friendships and relationships even though they are celibate (and they can be married in Eastern Catholicism as well).
FWIW, I don’t think Anakin’s line necessarily means a Jedi will have a girlfriend in every starport ;)
It’s pretty clear from this episode that Feloni is definitely the better story teller compared to Favreau. It’s not that Favreau is bad, but it did make me miss the older story style from the animated shows and wished we could see more of it in The Mandalorian.
Ahsoka’s montrals didn’t bother me in the least. Changes like those are necessary for practical reasons and is the price you pay for converting characters from animation to live action. Those white lightsabers did look really good though and I really like that pure beskar is resistant too lightsabers (loved the sound it made!). (I seem to recall that swords in Knights of the old Republic game could block lightsabers?)
Regarding materials blocking lightsabers, the Knights of the Old Republic game and sequels had cortosis weapons that could block lightsabers.
@7
As for Harley Quinn (weird — the board let me copy and paste the first two quotes but not a third), I think maybe there’s a younger generation raised on the games that considers Tara Strong the definitive Harley, given how often she gets cast in the role in various animated productions and even in voiceover in the Arrowverse. And Margot Robbie certainly seems to have made the role her own in live action.
Right, right.
The point I was trying to make with Harley — and I could’ve conveyed this better — is that Arleen Sorkin is the definitive Harley by virtue of being the very first Harley.
Remember, Harley’s distinct among the Batman villains in that she didn’t originate in the comics. She’s a creation of The Animated Series and only made the cross-media jump after the show ended its run (and because she was such a beloved breakout character)
Bruce Timm and Paul Dini created the character and Sorkin in particular gave Harley her voice. The three of them codified Harley, her history, and her personality. The challenge for anybody who’s written or played Harley in the years since BTAS is that they must stand on that foundation and honor it while trying to make Harley their own.
That being said, with the passage of time since BTAS ended and with more creators writing or playing Harley, I think it is getting easier for other creators to leave their mark. Amanda Conner and Jimmy Palmottii’s Harley Quinn run from the New 52 publishing era remains a huge success for DC. Strong and Robbie, likewise, have put their own stamp on Harley in their performances.
So it’s the same with Ahsoka. And it’s also a different case compared to, say, Matt Lanter and James Arnold Taylor having to follow in the footsteps of Hayden Christensen and Ewan McGregor and make the roles of Anakin and Obi-Wan their own.
Ahsoka, like Harley, is an original creation of the animated series. Lucas and Filoni created her while Eckstein gave the Padawan her voice. They codified the Togruta and so like Harley, anyody writing or playing Ahsoka has to follow that foundation long after Filoni and Eckstein leave Star Wars behind.
Dawson’s the first actress to play Ahsoka other than Eckstein, so it surely added to the pressure of getting it right (though having an actress of Dawson’s caliber and Ahsoka’s co-creator writing and directing this episode helped).
@3. Lisamarie: ” I was totally stoked when I saw them both disrobing and knew we were about to get a girl on girl action scene.”
Are we doing Phrasing? :P
@@.-@. MaskFriday: ” Michael Biehn! Good to see him again. You know, he happened to be in another one-on-one duel with Val Kilmer in the movie Tombstone.”
And he lost that one too.
I’m trying to remember in which of the Han Solo Adventures by Brian Daley it happened, but there was a shootout which explained why Han was such a fast draw. It had to do with isolating his movements. His opponent may have crouched, or even brought up his free arm, while Han stood still and only moved his gun arm. That’s essentially what Din did here.
@15:
I’m trying to remember in which of the Han Solo Adventures by Brian Daley it happened, but there was a shootout which explained why Han was such a fast draw.
Wasn’t it Han Solo and the Lost Legacy during his shoot-out with Gallandro in the climax?
Beskar was ‘lightsabre resistant’ in the old EU, don’t know if its made it into the new canon but wouldn’t be surprised if it had. Although, the rate with which Mandos get cut down in Clone Wars would suggest that if it has made it, then it only works for the heroes and villians. Like shooting straight.
@10/Lisamarie: There’s certainly precedent for warrior monks taking vows of chastity or dedicating themselves exclusively to their discipline rather than personal relationships. But that is an entirely separate thing from the spiritual principle of letting go of attachment, which — again — does not mean personal attachment, but attachment to the illusion of physical reality and one’s own separateness from the universe, and thus the concomitant illusions of need, desire, frustration, greed, jealousy etc. That kind of asceticism is just about self-control and dedication to a calling, analogous to the vows of poverty and chastity taken by monks, nuns, and priests in other religions. (I remember reading about Indian resistance fighters during the independence struggle against the British Raj who left their families and adopted ascetic, monk-like lifestyles, dedicating themselves exclusively to the fight until independence was won at last and they could return home.)
Given how easily selfish desires and emotions can draw one to the Dark Side, it seems entirely understandable why Jedi would adopt that kind of ascetic, self-disciplined existence. They recognize that their great power in the Force is so dangerous if they go astray that they have no choice but to maintain unwavering self-control and resistance to temptation.
@11/Adamus: “Ahsoka’s montrals didn’t bother me in the least. Changes like those are necessary for practical reasons and is the price you pay for converting characters from animation to live action.”
But the Togruta’s design originated in live action, on background characters in the prequel trilogy, some of whom had much bigger montrals, e.g. Jedi Master Shaak Ti. Ahsoka’s design in animation was based on the anatomy already established in live action, hence my puzzlement.
@13/Mr. Magic: Ah, I see what you mean. Sorkin’s Harley established the template that other actresses follow, to a greater or lesser extent. It’s definitive in the literal sense of defining the parameters of the character. People tend to use “definitive” to imply that a given actor’s performance is the last word on the character, but if you think about what “definitive” actually means, it’s more like the first word, the starting point for other to interpret and build on.
@7 – Buddhism, especially very early Theravada, does provide an excellent way to approach the ideals of the Jedi. I find it very easy to imagine Yoda teaching the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta ;)
@10 – Anglican tradition allows now for male and female married clergy and I find that allows for healthier relationships for them and with them. Not to say there aren’t still problems since people are people and, as above, the four noble truths are still true :)
Grump. Going to have to find someone with Disney + so I can leach watch this. I refuse to give my own money to Disney if I can avoid it.
@18 / CLB:
Ah, I see what you mean. Sorkin’s Harley established the template that other actresses follow, to a greater or lesser extent. It’s definitive in the literal sense of defining the parameters of the character. People tend to use “definitive” to imply that a given actor’s performance is the last word on the character, but if you think about what “definitive” actually means, it’s more like the first word, the starting point for other to interpret and build on.
Bingo — and you’re absolutely right about the technical meaning of ‘definitive’.
Heh, I blame my Thaksgiving food coma for that oopsie.
Also, speaking of The Animated Series, it’s interesting contrasting Harley’s development to that of GCPD Detective Renee Montoya. Both characters were created for BTAS and both made the jump to the comics (though Montoya preceded Harley by several years).
But whereas BTAS defined the template for Harley, Monotya remained a blank slate relatively speaking. In the context of the show, she’s the open-minded rookie meant to contrast Harvey Bullock’s abrasive, close-minded opinion of Bats.
It was instead the comics (specifically the work done by writer Greg Rucka during Detective Comics, Gotham Central, and 52) that truly defined and developed Reene into the Montoya we now think of — and which in turns has influenced other multimedia adaptations.
CLB@2:
Maybe Ahsoka has grown taller faster than her montrals? At this point, it’s been ten years since her appearance in Rebels, and 20 years since the end of the Clone Wars, so she is about 35-37ish? She was 5’2″ when the Clone wars started and a young teen. She’s grown close to 10″ since then in height. Maybe the montrals have grown longer, but not at the same rate as her legs and torso. Maybe in ten years, it will be back to the same proportion it was in The Clone Wars.
Regarding attachments, I know Lucas used Buddhism as a sort of wrapper for the mystical nature of the Force and the Jedi…but that’s all it is—a wrapper. Jedi philosophy as presented in the material is not, and never has been, canon.
I think the danger of attachment, as presented in the actual material we are discussing, is exactly what Yoda says it is: fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and hate to the dark side. Anakin was afraid of losing those close to him, because of the wound created when he was pulled away from his mother, and then subsequently losing her for good.
Attachment is dangerous for a Jedi because, without proper training, we fear to lose those we love, and that fear can lead us to become very, very angry. It’s a crack, and a pathway to the Dark Side. But that fear is ultimately driven by selfishness, not by attachment. It’s not the fear for the other person that makes us angry, it’s the fear of what we will lose should something happen to them. It’s not really attachment that causes that fear, it’s possessiveness. And it’s instinctual in us when we are children. That’s part of why the Jedi start training them so young. They don’t experience that fundamental attachment to their parents that is so hard to master emotionally. Instead, they are attached to something else—the Order as a whole. The Order, not any individual master or parent, provides that sense of safety, shelter and well-being.
It’s a dodge, to avoid issues that undoubtedly caused problems in an unacceptable number of beings before the measure was adopted. In the process, however, this sacrifice of personal attachments (at least until the Padawan was much older, with better training) led to the downfall of the Old Republic and the Jedi, I believe.
That said, I understand Ahsoka’s fear in this episode. Her own attachment to her former master has left a wound in her—one she is not eager to repeat.
What a great episode. I have been looking forward to it ever since I heard Ahsoka would be appearing in the series, and it did not disappoint. The ‘ghost in the forest’ scene was spectacular, with the lightsabers appearing and disappearing. I liked the way Ahsoka interacted with Baby Yoda, and would have loved to see her jump on the Razor Crest and join the team, but knew that wasn’t possible. The fight scenes were all great, including the two showdowns. And the Admiral Thrawn moment was a great one–I’d love to see him appear in live action at some point. As has been the case ever since this series began, I can’t wait for next week!
i noticed the horns were shorter but I figured it was a trade off between live action and animation.
Now in the Jedi Quest series by Jude Watson, Yaddle…
spoiler alert just in case….
Yaddle dies.
I have not finished watching every episode of the clone wars
was she in them? Did Ahsoka ever meet her?
Cuz i just assumed she hadnt met Yaddle since Yaddle died when Anakin was still a teen.
and yes i know those books are legend now but i will never forget!
In Legends Continuity Beskar’s ability to counter a lightsaber strike is one of its biggest selling points, and a major reason that Mandalorians are considered one of the greatest foes of the Jedi, particularly as it lacks many of the drawbacks of other lightsaber resistant materials, such as cortosis mining being extremely hazardous to the health of the miners, and pretty much all mined out by the Imperial era, and phrik being presumably difficult enough to work with that it’s only seen in electro-staffs. Other such materials are prohibitively expensive and rare.
I know it’s sort of fanon at this point that the Jedi were child-abusing morons, but it seems to me there are pretty pragmatic and practical reasons why they organized themselves the way they did. The ability to use the Force is power over other people; people who use that power casually, or for personal reasons, are going to be drawn to using that power more frequently. To dominate and oppress people, even if that’s not what they intended. Strip away the mystical mumbo jumbo, and I think it makes sense to compare it to our understanding of privilege and supremacy that have become much more mainstream over the past couple of decades.
So the Jedi have a commitment to disinterest from personal power, and it follows that they have to cut family ties as well. Whether they came from wealth or poverty, someone who is loyal to their family is going to be tempted to use that power to privilege their family. However well-intended that may start, it doesn’t end well. It makes sense that older children who have already formed loyalties are going to be considered too big a risk. It also makes sense why the Jedi Order attached itself to the Republic, however badly that may have ended–if they can’t avoid politics, they assume they’re better off supporting a theoretically egalitarian and democratic society where power isn’t hereditary.
And it makes sense why Ahsoka would balk at training Grogu. Not only is she not an experienced teacher, but any teaching relationship she forms with him is going to be complicated. Do they leave Din Djarin behind? Grogu may likely come to resent her for that. Do they bring him with? That might be what fans want to see, but they don’t all know each other that well, and they already have their own goals and commitments that might not work together. And even if they could smooth those over, what happens if Djarin finds himself undermining Ahsoka’s authority as a teacher? A situation like this is fraught with pitfalls, and Ahsoka has seen a lot of people die to pitfalls like that.
@24:
i noticed the horns were shorter but I figured it was a trade off between live action and animation.
Yeah, that was my thought, too.
And given how faithfully Filoni and the Makeup crew adapted Ahsoka’s design for live-action, I’m fine with the trade-off.
Beskar being lightsaber-resistant is fine with me as it helps the whole Jedi/Mandalorian thing make more sense. If Mandalorians can fight hand to hand with Jedi and withstand lightsaber blows in their armor like Din did when Ahsoka jumped him, I can now see how they’re ancient enemies.
It was great to see Ahsoka in live action and Dawson was great although her performance was almost undermined by her montrals. Not their length, but how faked they looked. They looked like a hat and it probably the first visual effects fail in the series.
Considering the money this show spends on effects, was a cgi touch up really a step too far?
@22/Anthony: I’m not a fan of the attitude that fiction is more important or more worth discussing than objective reality. Fiction isn’t meant to exist in a vacuum, as the exclusive source of its own meaning. It’s meant to be considered in the context of the real-world ideas it draws on and reflects. Discussing what attachment does and does not mean in the real-world philosophy Lucas was drawing from is useful for providing context for the discussion, as well as just for the sake of real-world understanding. Part of the value of fiction is that it can introduce us to new ideas that are worth exploring in real life. It should be a starting point for exploring the real world and its possibilities.
“I think the danger of attachment, as presented in the actual material we are discussing, is exactly what Yoda says it is: fear leads to anger, anger to hate, and hate to the dark side.”
Uh, yes, that’s a paraphrase of the Four Noble Truths of Buddhism, that attachment leads to desire which leads to suffering. But as I’ve said, it doesn’t mean “attachment” in the sense of personal relationships, but in the sense of attachment to the illusion of the physical world.
@24/Luv: Yaddle’s only onscreen appearance was in The Phantom Menace. Wookieepedia says that Shaak Ti had replaced her on the Jedi Council by the time of the Clone Wars.
@21: The confusing thing is that they seem to have gone with her design from the end of the Clone wars:
Ahsoka_meets_Trace.png
instead of the one from Rebels:
Ahsoka_finds_Ezra.jpeg
The montrals would need to shrink for that to work.
Edit: Embedding pictures didn’t work out, so I provide links instead.
Well, the Beskar wasn’t completely impervious; Ahsoka did manage to break the spear, she just had to hit it a few times. We saw in TPM that Obi-Wan and Qui-gon were slow enough cutting through a blast door that they eventually had to give up, while in Clone Wars Ahsoka could slice through walls and floors with ease –it’s consistent that some materials are more resistant than others.
As for her montrals, Shaak Ti never had to do any acrobatic stunts on screen (even at Geonosis she basically just stood in place and waved her lightsaber around), so there’s the out-of-universe explanation. If you want an in-universe hypothesis: montrals appear to be fatty tissue, and if she’s been living in that denuded forest for weeks or months, it’s possible she hasn’t been eating well. This might just be part of what starvation looks like for a togruta.
And yeah, Yaddle would’ve died/retired when Ahsoka was a toddler. Even if they met, Ahsoka might not remember it. Yoda, meanwhile, was a near-constant presence in her life, even after becoming Anakin’s padawan (perhaps even especially, given how often Anakin’s antics required Council supervision).
Yaddle didn’t appear in any episode of The Clone Wars, so Ahsoka’s line that she’s only known one other member of the species can still work.
My favorite aspect of Dawson’s performance is that she moved and stood the way the animated character did, both in terms of fight choreography (which was brilliant) and just that kind of always-leaning-forward mode that Ahsoka was always in. It was beautifully done.
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
The montrals thing really bothered me. Depending on Torgruta lifespans and individual variance, you could form an argument about whether they should be as large as Shaak Ti’s, but they should at least be as large as Ahsoka’s were on Rebels. It really shocked me that Filoni and Favreau would miss a detail like this (although there could have been other issues). I went to bed formulating the head canon that Torgruta periodically shed their montrals and regrow them, up to a size based on age. Or maybe she sheared and smoothed them, akin to a human haircut.
RE: Grogu’s age. He was established as being 50 in the pilot. Which doesn’t track with Yoda’s age if you think there is a linear comparison to human age, but there’s no reason to believe there is. I remember an article about dog age in the last few years that asserted it’s not a 7:1 linear relationship like people always like to say, but rather it’s a curvilinear function. So I can easily see tridactyls having a logistic, exponential, or other relationship to human age.
I like all the discussions about Anakin’s feelings on love and how right or wrong Jedi teachings are. I also question whether Anakin and Padmé’s relationship was an entirely healthy one (on either part), and whether they would have lasted without the Galactic Events if they had just been luving with each other normally.
CLB@30:
I’m not implying one is more important than the other. Please don’t read more in to what I’m saying that what I’m actually saying.
What I am saying is that when discussing what a word means in the context it is presented, we can confuse the issue by taking another context’s meaning as “gospel.” We can also enlighten the conversation, as long as we don’t take it too far. But Jedi are not Buddhists, and while Lucas draws from some visual cues in Buddhism, and certainly some of the language, he twisted them to mean something else entirely. And two generations of non-Buddhists have further shifted the meaning of the word “attachment” as presented in Star Wars.
But, then again, there’s the whole argument that things don’t mean what the creators intended them to mean—they mean whatever the consumers of such entertainment interpret them to mean. Who am I to argue with that?
@34/crzydroid: There’s no reason why other species (especially fantasy aliens) should have the same ratio of maturation time to total life expectancy that humans do. After all, aging isn’t a single process. The mechanisms involved in growth and development are different from, and in competition with, the processes involved in senescence and death. To simplify, the former processes dominate in childhood, the two balance out in maturity, and the latter processes take the lead in old age.
I think the whole “a dog year is seven human years” folk belief is probably just based on comparing the average life expectancies — about 10-11 years for dogs vs. 70-80 for humans. Naturally it doesn’t hold up on a more detailed level.
RE: Ahsoka’s design.
The designer from the show posted on Twitter that the montrals length was a compromise to make the live action stunts work:
https://thedirect.com/article/the-mandalorian-rosario-dawson-ahsoka-costume-concern-spoilers
So, it was just a practical compromise that they were aware they were making.
@34:
I also question whether Anakin and Padmé’s relationship was an entirely healthy one (on either part), and whether they would have lasted without the Galactic Events if they had just been luving with each other normally.
Yeah, it’s one of the Great What Ifs of the Prequel-era.
I mean…I know Lucas intended for theirs to be True Love, but I just don’t see it that way — and I’m not saying that to voice the old, customary ‘George Lucas Sucks at Romance’ complaints.
I think Anakin and Amidala were both sheltered young adults with almost teenage views on romance and love. They were isolated, lonely individuals chafing at the roles that had been decided for them by others (Jedi Padawan and Naboo politician respectively). It wasn’t a healthy, loving relationship, but one built on passion, desire, and each emotional desperation. One could even see it as being a deconstruction of the Forbidden Romance storytelling trope (showing precisely why it’s forbidden).
That said, I do think the Clone Wars both created their marriage and postponed its collapse. In the case of creation, of course, thinking they were going to die at Geonosis caused them to cross the Rubicon, so to speak.
With the postponement, the demands and chaos of the War (politically and martially) kept Anakin and Amidala away from each other for extended periods and prevented them from seriously tackling any underlying problems in their marital foundation (ex. That scene in ROTS when Padme tries to stop their verbal fight and wants to go back pretending things were like they were at the Naboo villa).
Anakin and Amidala also weren’t exactly subtle with their tryst and I think the Jedi or Padme’s political rivals might have cottoned on sooner if not for the aforementioned distraction and chaos of the Clone Wars.
was Grand Admiral Thrawn as written by Zhan. But Ahsoka was a close second, and in recent years has had the chance to develop a lot more. This was a brilliant episode, that sets the foundations for “The search for Thrawn”
Hm. Just throwing this out there, but….maybe Grogu’s maturation process is dependent on his emotional health? Being kept isolated and stunting his powers is stunting his maturation process?
@40: I think CLB and I already covered that there’s no reason to expect an alien’s growth process should be anything like a human’s.
@37: I figured it could be because of the stunts being difficult with the longer montrals. I’m still going to go out of my way to look for in-universe explanations, lol.
Yaddle? Oh, that bad looking puppet from Phantom Menace to go with the equally bad looking Yoda puppet in that movie? The one that looks like Yoda with a wig he bought at a second hand store?
Can’t say I blame them for wanting to forget that character.
@26
On the one hand, I agree with you about the pragmatism behind the Jedi principles of non-attachment– it does make a certain amount of sense, theoretically. That being said, I think that the “theoretically” in that sentence is important, especially since the Jedi are at heart a spiritual/semi-religious order: I think it’s just as silly to assume that every “good” Force-sensitive person in the galaxy must follow the tenets of the Jedi Order as the assumption of religious zealots worldwide that there’s one way to be a good and moral person– that is, by adhering to the tenets of [insert religion here]– while considering everyone else is degenerate, immoral, and/or primitive.
These kinds of assumptions, in the real world, leave no room for the respectful acknowledgement of genuine devotion and faith within different belief systems– or even the genuine lack of belief. In the SW universe, this plays out in the fact that there’s really only one way to be narratively celebrated as a Force user– either being a Jedi or aspiring to Jedi ideals– while there are many ways to be a “bad” and immoral Force user– being a Sith, a Nightsister, a Fallen Jedi, etc, etc. Not everyone is suited to detachment/ the ideals of the Jedi Order, but I don’t think that necessarily means that they’re inherently flawed and drawn to the Dark.
Take Anakin as a prime example– the prequels will forever be a tragedy to me because Anakin was clearly trying so hard to conform to a philosophical system which didn’t really fit him at all. It was his feelings of inadequacy at not being able to conform himself to the ideals of the Jedi that gave Palpatine a foot in the door, and that’s what led to, you know, Order 66 and the Empire rising.
Frankly, I think the Jedi Order’s biggest problem is its one-size-fits-all approach to finding the Light Side of the Force– if such a thing truly exists, and isn’t simply a construct of ancient SW-universe philosophy. Where are the indigenous Force traditions of the various worlds of the Republic, and the interesting ways in which they intersect in a truly galactic society? Where are my non-Jedi force users who interpret their relationships with the Force outside of a binary of Light/Good and Dark/Evil?
I think that I think the Guardians of the Whills as seen in Rogue One were a good start to exploring various ways in which one could positively relate to the Force outside of the framework of the Jedi Order, but I think there’s a whole lot of interesting territory for future SW storytellers to tread.
@38 – oh yes, I agree with you (and crzydroid, but he already knows I agree with him as we’ve discussed these things many times) on that. Also, if you watch some of the deleted scenes in AOTC it’s also kinda clear Padme has some issues with fixing things (the whole story with the refugee children she tried to help but who all ended up dying) and her family also is chiding her about finding time for romance. In fact, watching AOTC, the turning point in her feelings for Anakin actually seem to be when he wants to run off and save his mother, and despite him admitting to massacring an entire village, she writes it off as no biggy (which seems a little counter to her role as a diplomat!). So honestly, I think Anakin has some underlying mommy issues, and Padme is all too willing to play that role (perhaps subconsciously) and “fix” him.
(There are also some Clone Wars episodes that really play up the more problematic aspects of their relationship, and Anakin’s jealousy, which honestly went pretty dark in my opinion).
How much of this is laid at the feet at the Jedi of course is hard to say; clearly they were in no position to really help him navigate this (and if they had, you know, just paid for his mother to be kept in an apartment on Coruscant somewhere that might actually have averted A TON. I’d like to think Qui-Gon would have been savvy enough to do this had he lived, with or without the permission of the Council (and speaking of, Filoni gives a really cool monologue in one of the Mandalorian Gallery documentaries about how Duel of the Fates is really a pivotal moment and if Qui-Gon had lived to be Anakin’s master things would have been MUCH different)). That said, I don’t think that means the Jedi beliefs on attachment in general are totally without merit, either and I also don’t buy into the ‘the Jedi are the real villains’ fanon. Palpatine was of course also pulling a lot of strings. In a way it was kind of a swiss cheese effect.
@CLB, et al. Yeah, I really don’t think we disagree on most of it :) My general knowledge of ‘attachment’ comes from a more Catholic spirituality (for which the concept of attachment has its own meaning, especially for those who take vows) and there are definitely some similarities between what we are talking about and that resonates with me (I agree that it doesn’t have to mean actual human relationships even if some people feel more called to a solitary life, and others just incorrectly extrapolate it to that) although of course there are differences. But Star Wars is also a mix of a lot of different things (by design, I think) so I suppose we’ll all see things in it. The main difference is that the Force is a more dualistic concept*, and not personified (I am NOT counting Anakin as some equivalent to the Incarnation, ha, despite the whole virgin birth wrench thrown in there. Structurally I see the similarities but there’s also a lot that just doesn’t fit). So it doesn’t always map perfectly there either. Still, I think the themes are widely applicable and like you say, it’s fruitful to discuss :)
*the Dark Side is one of those things that I think attempts to blend both in that it’s often portrayed as a ‘good vs evil’ dichotomy, but I don’t think in most dualistic worldviews the dark is intended to be evil, per se. Of course, I know there’s plenty in the fandom that also view the Dark Side as more morally neutral than the movies typically portray it. I’m personally not drawn to dualistic worldviews, so I always conceptualize the Dark Side as something representing a lack of balance (unchecked aggression, greed, possessiveness, power for its own sake) and the darkness/baser impulses we all struggle against. I have to admit the ‘Grey Jedi’ fanon never really did it for me. YMMV though; I don’t mean to impose my own fanon on others.
In Ch.1 it was clear that there were two distinct bounties on the Child, one faction wanting him alive, the other wanting him dead.
I think we now have identities for the leaders of both faction.
Moff Gideon, and Grand Admiral Thrawn.
I suspect our hero, after several episodes of competence porn, is about to find himself in a situation too ugly for him to handle.
@43 – yesss :) I don’t really care for ‘Grey Jedi’ (which to me is a kind of fan variant of basically badass Jedi who sometimes do things like use Force lightning and other ‘cool’ Sith powers and only occasionally embracing their anger) but…one of the other things I had been hoping the sequels would go into was the idea of completely different Force users and traditions that don’t necessarily involve the same lifestyle. Maybe Rey will, who knows.
I guess it kind of hinges on if the Dark Side is really a thing or if, as you say, a construct. Like if there really is some actual, quantifiable dark side that even with the best of intentions will end up being too tempting and corrupting, no matter what you’ll probably have to avoid it. Still, even with that, it leaves a lot of room for other types of Force users.
The EU has of course explored this quite a bit, and I think some of the shows did touch on it a little (I think Clone Wars had some other Force users, and Yoda visited the planet of the Whills).
Completely pivoting, I was rewatching the episode with one of my kids and I thought it was kind of interesting when Ahsoka told Din to ‘connect’ with Grogu to train him. We also just watched the Lego special (which is obviously very pseudocanon although I really do want Rey to train Finn) and the whole main message of that was that Rey had to find a connection with Finn to be able to train effectively. Which kind of goes to show that even with the Jedi, ‘no attachments’ doesn’t mean ‘be robots’. (Again, assuming we’re taking it seriously at all).
@40 I definitely took this to imply that Grogu is traumatized and emotionally regressed, and that the audience has just been taking too much on faith by assuming that he’s a species-normal 50 in terms of developmental psychology. It also occurred to me: is it possible that, left to itself, the species is nonverbal? That they use the Force for communication, and learn Basic with great difficulty only if they are in a role like Yoda’s that requires it?
@44 / Lisamarie:
Also, if you watch some of the deleted scenes in AOTC it’s also kinda clear Padme has some issues with fixing things (the whole story with the refugee children she tried to help but who all ended up dying) and her family also is chiding her about finding time for romance.
Yeah, similarly to the deleted scenes from ROTS (which showed the political deterioration in the Senate and Padme’s role in the origins of the Rebel Alliance), I wish Lucas hadn’t excised that footage
I get why he took it out (for pacing reasons and to shift focus to Anakin in AOTC after his relatively supporting role in TPM). But both deleted sequences really added needed depth and development to Padme’s storyline and character within the context of the PT.
How much of this is laid at the feet at the Jedi of course is hard to say; clearly they were in no position to really help him navigate this (and if they had, you know, just paid for his mother to be kept in an apartment on Coruscant somewhere that might actually have averted A TON.
My all-time favorite shot from TPM is when Anakin’s being tested by the Council. I still remember seeing that shot in theaters in May 1999 and getting chills — knowing that this young boy these Council members were sitting in judgment was going to get them all killed and burn their Order to the ground in the years to come.
I remember wanting to yell at them to stop being so arrogant and aloof. If you see the potential for danger, why are you doing everything you can to antagonize him? Why would you allow him to be trained by a novice, newly raised Knight rather than a venerable Master? Why don’t you go get his freaking mother?
But of course, they couldn’t because, in a way, the Jedi were just as shackled by the Order and its dogma as Anakin was.
I remember Matthew Stover made this interesting argument in his Revenge of the Sith novelization 15 years ago and I’ve never forgotten it: That Yoda, as the oldest living Jedi, for all intents remade the Order in his own image by the time it fell.
Specifically, Yoda’s training took place in the aftermath of the last Jedi-Sith War over 800 years ago — and in the aftermath of the Order’s reformations to prevent another Sith resurgence (in particular raising Jedi from birth rather than training them as adults).
So, with Yoda and his specific, dare I say ultraconservative interpretation of Jedi theology at the helm for so many centuries, the Order remained trapped in the past and unable to adapt and evolve in a changing galaxy (whereas the Sith did evolve their methodology and it made all the difference).
For all the flak against TLJ, Luke wasn’t wrong when he said the old Jedi’s legacy was failure, hypocrisy, and hubris. We saw multiple instances of the Order’s arrogant insularity and blind obedience and faith in its institutions throughout the PT — from Mace’s refusal to believe Dooku would behave in an un-Jedi-like fashion at the beginning of AOTC to Obi-Wan failing to realize the simple truth about why Kamino’s coordinates weren’t in the Jedi Archives.
The Order has become so blind to how to train a Jedi and how to behave as a Jedi, that deviation from that is impossible. By the time Yoda and others had begun to realize how much trouble the Order was in, the Clone Wars were upon them and it was too late.They didn’t know how to handle someone like Anakin and doubling down on the system only made things worse — which is why Obi-Wan was the worst choice to train him.
With Qui-Gon, yeah, still adhered to the Code in his own way, but I agree with you and Filoni: With his maverick personality and father figure role to Anakin, he would have made the difference with Anakin’s training — or at least enough of a difference. It would’ve been much more difficult for Sidious to take on a father figure role and start driving wedges between Anakin and the Order.
@@@@@ 44
I came here to talk about that very Dave Filoni monologue that you mentioned in response to @@@@@ 8 but you beat me to it lol. That talk changed the way I see the end of The Phantom Menace & that fight (which is already my personal favorite light saber duel in the entire series!). Dave Filoni is The Man.
I have seen the casting rumors for Ezra plus more (cough cough Mara Jade cough cough Luke Skywalker cough cough) but not sure if this is the place to talk about that stuff.
@43
I don’t see any reason to think that Jedi don’t acknowledge that you can be a good person, a Force-wielder, and not a member of the Jedi Order. We know that they let people leave the Order without any sanction or punishment–Dooku and Ahsoka seem to have left the Jedi without any official disapproval, and no one condemns them as heretics. Qui-Gon seems to have a lot of philosophical disagreements with the Council and the Jedi, but nobody seems keen to kick him out–they’re still sending him on missions and letting him teach. We’re pretty short on non-Jedi religious orders, but they don’t seem hostile to faiths that aren’t inherently violent.
On the contrary the Jedi seem pretty lenient, even lax in enforcing their strictures by the end. Some of that is the stress of the Clone Wars, but even before that we get hints that they give Jedi a lot of leeway in their personal lives. And Anakin seems to get a lot of slack in particular: his relationship with Padme really seems like an open secret that everyone prefers not to acknowledge. And he’s the Chosen One; he knows it, and he knows that other Jedi know it–he can pretty much get away with murder (and I mean, he did.)
So the Jedi trained him in violation of their own standards, and then did the worst thing possible: put him at the front of their war effort, and lean on him as their sword. Yoda and Windu might be more experienced and even technically better warriors, but Anakin finds he really likes war. He likes the aggression and excitement. He starts to expect adulation, and to get what he wants–and nobody is going to tell him know, because they are counting on him to be their chief warrior. The Jedi got a lot of things wrong, but being too hard on Anakin isn’t really one of them.
Anakin makes his choices, and there’s nothing the Jedi did wrong, could have done wrong, that justifies or even explains being Galactic Murderer #1. That’s something he did on his own. Still, the Jedi could have prevented it–if they didn’t train him. Or if they spent more time teaching him philosophy than teaching him to be a weapon.
At this point nobody alive knows all of that better than Ahsoka. Yoda and Kenobi still believed they were acting out fate and prophecy when they trained Luke–that he could be a new chosen one. But Ahsoka never had that kind of relationship with the Force; she never had a special destiny, and was ultimately left out of that whole conflict. So it’s not surprising that she might look at this kid, and wonder if he’s better off not being trained. Because, really, mightn’t he? Wouldn’t he and Din Djarin be better off probably if they just retired to that nice village?
@47 Yeah, that was what I was getting at; Grogu’s state is trauma induced, and not merely a species specific retardation of maturity. He’s child-like because of that trauma.
@50 And playing off of that….maybe Ahsoka senses that to properly heal and mature, Grogu needs Din Djarin as a father, and not just get tutored in ways of the Force.
Maybe six degrees separated from anyone in this story, but original Darth Vader actor Dave Prowse has passed away. He was 85.
So regarding the tweaks to Ahoska’s design for the live-action adaptation, Lucasfilm’s Brian Matyas has confirmed what we thought about it being a matter of production/makeup logistics:
“From animation to live action I did a ton of design exploration for her and their appropriate size for the actor with consideration for stunts and movement. I’m sure I’ll get to discuss at greater length in the near future!”
Again, given how faithfully they were able to adapt Ahsoka’s design, I understand and don’t mind.
I can’t see anything the Jedi could have done differently making a difference. They fell because they were murdered, not some systemic flaw. Like the nightsisters, the Mandalorians, or the Lasaat,who were also murdered by the Empire, their beliefs are pretty irrelevant.
Bring Shmi to Coruscant? Palpatine finds out about her, and can arrange her brutal murder any time he chooses.
Qui Gon would be a terrible master for Anakin. He regards Obi Wan, his super submissive apprentice as ‘headstrong’, he’d struggle with an actual headstrong apprentice.
Not train him? Palpatine finds him instead.
There’s no silver bullet here, and the unfortunate implications are through the roof with ‘change your religious practices, and you wouldn’t have needed to be exterminated’
If anything, Anakin and Qui Gon would have brought out the worst in each other. Qui Gon is himself a subversive rebel. It isn’t hard to see how headstrong Anakin and Qui “ignore the council” Gon could have gotten really bad really quickly. The only way that pairing prevents Palpatine is if they replace him as Dark Lord.
@32: She DIDN’T break the spear though; she merely knocked it out of Elsbeth’s hands. It was completely intact and unscathed even through her giving it to Din at the end.
I’m okish with it. I would’ve preferred a resistance that would succumb to a lightsaber eventually, but I do have to admit it was cool seeing him block with his gauntlets. That whole scene with their first confrontation was really well done.
Beskar being so impenetrable also makes sense with why they where it in the first place–in general as well as for explaining the Jedi-Mandalorian war.
Stormtrooper armor–not so much. So you either have to go to it’s there for intimidation, or you can maybe say that while stormtroopers easily fall to military grade blasters used by the Rebellion, it is resistant to the weaker blasters a civilian would be allowed to get their hands on.
wraith: The Jedi could’ve gone down fighting. My biggest issue with the prequel trilogy is that it’s a chronicle of the Jedi Knights’ utter and complete failure. Most of the Jedi who were killed by Order 66 died not having the first clue why the clone troopers were shooting them in the head. Palpatine’s plan works effortlessly and flawlessly because at no point do the Jedi even have the remotest idea of what he’s doing. The Jedi were spectacularly incompetent. (My favorite moment in The Last Jedi is Luke saying that out loud. I nearly cheered in the theatre.)
—Keith R.A. DeCandido
I’d just like to chime in that the Jedi’s aversion to attachment is not necessarily a bad thing, though it could be taken to an extreme. It has already been pointed out that George Lucas was a follower of Buddhism in the early Star Wars days and some of the Jedi philosophy was loosely based on that religion’s teachings. It seems to me that the Jedi’s failure–and the reason Ahsoka left–is that the Jedi are hypocritical about it and don’t really follow their teachings. You can’t be an ascetic and a government bureaucracy at the same time. They became to embroiled in politics and and set aside, in some ways, their teachings for expediency and convenience. This is something that had been going on for quite some time, with notable Masters such a Qui-Gon Jin and even Dooku, noting the lack.
So I’m not sure the whole philosophy of abandoning attachment is something that Ahsoka, or even the viewer, is supposed to view as something bad to be abandoned, perhaps just an adjustment in implementation.
@57:
My biggest issue with the prequel trilogy is that it’s a chronicle of the Jedi Knights’ utter and complete failure. Most of the Jedi who were killed by Order 66 died not having the first clue why the clone troopers were shooting them in the head. Palpatine’s plan works effortlessly and flawlessly because at no point do the Jedi even have the remotest idea of what he’s doing. The Jedi were spectacularly incompetent.
I remember Matt Stover addressed that in his Revenge of the Sith novelization (and while this long preceded the revelations of the ‘Inhibitor Chip’ arc from Clone Wars, I think aspects of it still work in tandem). Stover’s take was that because the Clone Wars had flooded the Force with nonstop death and destruction, it had dulled the Jedi’s reflexes. Combine that and the Clones feeling no malice when executing the Order, the Jedi didn’t register they were about to get Sonny Corleone’d until it was too late.
But I do agree that Luke wasn’t wrong in TLJ when he essentially said that the OT painted the Jedi as the victims of the Empire’s purge and for the most part, that’s still true with the context of the PT.
Yet, I do like how the Jedi were equally culpable in their own destruction. It felt plausible, all too real, and played into the larger theme Lucas had running through the PT (albeit beneath the bad direction and CGI) about insular arrogance, blind faith in institutions, and the ensuing cost — themes which, if anything, have enriched the Prequels even more now given the American political climate of the last few years.
Padme trusted in Valroum to resolve the Naboo Crisis, only to see firsthand the Senate gridlock that had helped cause the Crisis in the first place (and which she was able to do little good against once she replaced Palpatine as Naboo’s representative).
The Jedi Council likewise had complete faith in their mastery and abilities and simply could not conceive that the Sith Lords had returned and escaped their vigilance — let alone that the Sith Lord had secured the Chancellery, was manipulating the Senate, and meeting with the senior Jedi on a regular basis. Obi-Wan likewise could not conceive that the Jedi Archives had been tampered with and that Kamino’s coordinates could be erased.
Ohhh I wanted to love Ahsoka in this so much. There was just something off there. I have no problems with visual tweaks (such as the shorter montrals) but visually she just felt like a… a human in makeup and a rubber hat. Perhaps that’s the problem with this new age of 4K streaming, it’s very unforgiving
Beyond the visuals though, to me she didn’t exhibit the same gravitas and wisdom that she did when we last saw her in Rebels. She felt younger and less experienced to me, even though we last saw her, what, 20-30 in-universe years ago.
It’s quite possible that my opinion here is biased due to the current up-in-the-air transphobic abuse lawsuit currently being levelled against Rosario Dawson.
Side note: while it’s awesome that we got the first ever lightsaber duel between female protagonists, does the fact that they were fighting over a man (Grand Admiral Thrawn) mean that it technically it doesn’t pass the Bechdel test?
@60/ohnojono: What I read is that the lawsuit has been mostly dismissed. While it’s important to take accusations of abuse and discrimination seriously, I fear we’ve become too quick to mistake the accusation itself for automatic proof of guilt, the end of the story instead of just the beginning of the investigation. We need to remember that everyone deserves the benefit of the doubt, the accused as well as the accuser, and keep an open mind until the facts are in.
And it’s only the first live-action lightsaber duel between female protagonists. The tendency to assume animation doesn’t count seems particularly misguided in the context of a story about this particular character. Heck, at this point, in terms of sheer screen time, Star Wars is primarily an animated television franchise with the occasional live-action installment.
@60 – I agree about her look. While I think they did a beautiful job translating Ahsoka to the real world, her montrals just look too…rubbery? And kind of deflated, too, I noticed. They just don’t look like biological matter to me. I just assume, though, that a more realistic look would probably cause it to weigh too much for the actor to comfortably wear or perform stunts in.
@60: I think her last appearance was only 10-12 years ago in-universe. I think season four of Rebels is only supposed to be 1 BBY or so, unless I’m terribly mistaken.
@63:
Filoni is actually being coy about when precisely the Rebels finale’s epilogue takes place in relation to Ahsoka’s guest apperance in The Mandalorian.
Probably a wise move to leave them enough leeway for whatever Lucasfilm Animation is working on next (with the big loose end of Ezra and Thrawn’s fates unresolved).
Ahsoka didn’t have a philosophical difference with the Jedi, she had a grudge because they didn’t protect her from prosecution.
‘Equally culpable’ is such a strange perspective. People don’t normally say that about murderers and their victims.
wraith: The Jedi could’ve gone down fighting. My biggest issue with the prequel trilogy is that it’s a chronicle of the Jedi Knights’ utter and complete failure. Most of the Jedi who were killed by Order 66 died not having the first clue why the clone troopers were shooting them in the head. Palpatine’s plan works effortlessly and flawlessly because at no point do the Jedi even have the remotest idea of what he’s doing. The Jedi were spectacularly incompetent. (My favorite moment in The Last Jedi is Luke saying that out loud. I nearly cheered in the theatre.)
I mean, they literally did go down fighting. Palpatine’s plan was not effortless (it took decades, plus improvising when he unexpectedly lost his first apprentice) or flawless, (nearly dying v Yoda,, Anakin getting crippled for life). The Jedi were suspicious of him, but suspicion isn’t proof.
The fandom thinks they’re incompetent because they have more knowledge than the characters do, having watched the OT
We’re watching a culture be exterminated, and yet the fandom is cheering. It’s bizarre.
@65:
‘Equally culpable’ is such a strange perspective. People don’t normally say that about murderers and their victims.
Okay, yeah, that’s fair.
I should have phrased that better back in @59.
Every one I watched this episode with who knew who Ahsoka was, was convinced she was gonna die this episode.
Like, it would have been a REAL boss move to put her in Live Action just to kill her off.
So, I think that’s the reason why she seems to struggle in her face off against Elsbeth, to keep that concern going over Ahsoka’s fate.
I’m convinced Grogu is an anagram of GeORGe LUcas. His surname is probably Eclase or something.
One thing I don’t think Filoni gets enough credit for, is how he honors Lucas with what he does. A lot of other people say he “does Star Wars better than Lucas”. And that may be true, but that is only because he believes Lucas is genius, and believes in that genius. This article spells it out, but for me, the fact that he finds value in the prequels, which so many people, including lots of Filoni fans, outright write them off, demonstrates the honor he has towards what Lucas has created.
I think since Ahsoka doesn’t turn up til after AoTC, and Yaddle is only seen in TPM, we can assume she retired or something.
At first, I thought 1 human year equaled 10 Yodito years, which worked, 900 year old Yoda=90 year old human. But then Grogu would be the equivalent of a 5 year old human, and while some things can be explained with a stunted development due to a lack of personal interaction, at this point Grogu can’t be that advanced. So I don’t know what they are doing, but I wish they’d explain it.
@7 CLB
What led Anakin to the dark side wasn’t that he had a relationship, it’s that he had an unhealthy and possessive one. So Jedi teachings on attachment aren’t incompatible with having close bonds.
I agree on this, and was a good thing that the Legends EU worked on IMO. There were many times in the Luke/Mara relationship where they sensed the other in danger, but stayed on mission, their selves where very wrapped up in what they felt for one another, but were ultimately able to still act selflessly(to a point RIP Mara). Anakin was never able to do that without pouting about it. But again, I still blame that mostly on the Jedi. There’s never any indications they worked with Anakin on that, just said “Let go, like we do, who have been raised our whole lives like this.” That’s what I appreciate about Filoni, and his understanding about why the death of Qui-Gon is as impactful as it is, because he knew Anakin couldn’t be trained the old way, he’d have to be trained in a way that cognizant of the attachments he had and how to manage his feelings appropriately.
Yoda even said, at the end of TPM, that he didn’t want Anakin trained, but was overruled by the others. If they had stuck by the old system then Palpatine would never have taken over.
Yeah, because Palpatine, who engineered Anakin’s birth, wouldn’t have gotten him and trained him himself.
EYEROLL
Qui Gon was right and the Jedi were wrong. What Anakin needed was nurturing, not the cold detached instruction he got from Obi-Wan.
@67/Aeryl: As I said before, there’s no reason why an alien’s life cycle would have to be in exact proportion to a human’s life cycle. Look at Klingons. On the one hand, Worf’s son Alexander was full-grown by the age of 8, but on the other hand, we know that Kor, Kang, and Koloth lived to be somewhere near 150 (assuming they were somewhere around 40 when they met Kirk in TOS). So they grow up much faster but age much slower. Also, Vulcans reach maturity at about the same rate as humans (we see Spock fully grown in his mid-20s in Kelvin and Discovery) but live 2-3 times as long. So it could just as easily go the other way — Yoda and Grogu’s species may have a proportionately longer maturation process than humans.
On the other hand, maybe Yoda’s species typically lives 2000 years, but Yoda lived hard and fast and died young. :D
In re Ahsoka’s refusal to train Grogu
IMO, I get it. I am very familiar with the fact that I can readily identify a problem, with absolutely no idea how to implement a solution. So I can’t blame Ahsoka for refusing to take on the responsibility.
I mean really, the Jedi spent 10,000 years messing this up, and she’s supposed to find a way to do better in 5????
My big question, is why do so many people think refusing to train people with Force sensitivity solves the problem? Like they’re not still going to have access to this amazing power, and without guidance will do some horrific stuff with it. Ahsoka saying his powers would fade? That’s the first time I’ve ever heard that.
Also, FYI but the article in my comment #67 is about the Filoni/Gallery monologue about the Duel of the Fates, since that got mentioned so much, but I commented first!
On the one hand, Worf’s son Alexander was full-grown by the age of 8, but on the other hand, we know that Kor, Kang, and Koloth lived to be somewhere near 150 (assuming they were somewhere around 40 when they met Kirk in TOS).
Either way, you’re right. From available evidence Klingons mature quickly and then have a naturally long life span. The former is certainly reasonable for a species who are somewhat violent by nature. While the lawyer in Enterprise (and I regret I can’t recall his name at the moment) pretty much states that Klingon society did not used to be a dominant by the warriors as they are “now,” I think it is still likely that they are naturally a rather aggressive and predatory species.
@73:
Wrong article?
@71/Aeryl: “My big question, is why do so many people think refusing to train people with Force sensitivity solves the problem? Like they’re not still going to have access to this amazing power, and without guidance will do some horrific stuff with it.”
A potential needs to be developed before it can be used. Look at Luke. He had no idea he could use the Force. He couldn’t even begin to tap into it until Obi-Wan showed him how. And Leia never showed any Force abilities in the original trilogy, because she never trained either. So without training, a Force-sensitive person wouldn’t have access to that power. They’d never learn how. Maybe some would intuitively stumble upon some degree of that power, as Rey did in TFA, but they wouldn’t use it as effectively as they would with training. It’s like a muscle — it doesn’t start out strong, you have to work to get it that way.
@73/costumer: “Assuming Kira’s estimate was correct, then Koloth was about 150; that’s what she estimates when tellling Jadzia about him. She calls Kor as closer to 100, so apparently he is younger than Koloth.”
First off, that was Odo talking to Dax and Kira about the drunk Klingon in his holding cell and the guy who came to bail him out. Second, “Blood Oath” takes place in 2370, 103 years after “Errand of Mercy,” and I very much doubt that Kor was negative three years old when he conquered Organia.
@75:
A potential needs to be developed before it can be used. Look at Luke. He had no idea he could use the Force. He couldn’t even begin to tap into it until Obi-Wan showed him how. And Leia never showed any Force abilities in the original trilogy, because she never trained either. So without training, a Force-sensitive person wouldn’t have access to that power. They’d never learn how. Maybe some would intuitively stumble upon some degree of that power, as Rey did in TFA, but they wouldn’t use it as effectively as they would with training. It’s like a muscle — it doesn’t start out strong, you have to work to get it that way.
Yeah, James Luceno had Sidious and Plagueis make that similiar point in the Darh Plagueis novel (which technically hasn’t been rescued from pre-Disney Canon entirely, but Luceno’s explanation still works).
Basically, while fine-tuning what would become Order 66, Sidious pointed out one big flaw of the Purge: Even if it worked, Force-sensitive beings would still be born into a Jedi-less galaxy. Plagueis acknowledged the flaw, but he felt that in the absence of the Jedi and their ‘indoctrination’, these nobodies would pose no serious problem to the Sith.
Christopher, your right, I misremembered who said it. Still, I think the point was Koloth is older than Kor, though that isn’t really the most important. That Klingons easily live to nearly 150 or more is the important bit of information. They mature quickly and, if they don’t get killed, live a long time.
@CLB
I dunno, I just don’t buy that, because of what we’re shown with Anakin and Rey. They had both been subconsciously using it their whole lives. No reason whatsoever that they couldn’t understand it to be something they could use consciously.
I mean, recall Anakin correctly guessing every picture in his test. If nothing else, he was gonna go make bank on Canto Bight if he never was accepted by the Jedi.
IMO, there is too much narrative potential in the idea of people with latent powers beginning to manifest them more to believe that “Oh you don’t use them it doesn’t ever become a problem”
@78/Aeryl: Yes, they could use the Force to an extent, but that is not the same as being trained to use its full potential. By analogy, I have functional arms and could swing a punch at someone, but it would be much feebler and less effective than a punch thrown by, say, Keith R.A. DeCandido, who’s a karate instructor. I have a working voice and near-perfect pitch, but I couldn’t sing a fraction as well as my college friend who went on to a brief Broadway career, because I’ve never trained as a singer. There is a massive difference between raw potential and trained ability. An untrained Force user could guess Zener cards or intuitively pull off a Jedi mind trick, sure, but that is a far, far cry from having the power to see the future or stop a blaster beam with your mind or fire Force lightning. With no training, the worst you’d probably get is a minor nuisance, not an all-powerful evil space wizard.
@CLB But any skill can be honed with practice. And doing things like tricking people’s minds, or seeing things that are hidden are skills that encourage the user to use more dangerous skill. Or consider the kid who moved the broom at the end of TLJ. That wasn’t just a predilection towards luck, that’s a concrete example that you have powers, and that kind of thing doesn’t just get left behind, especially not to a kid in that situation. I get your analogy, but at the end of the day, people learned how to do things without teachers. Sure, it’s optimal that I be taught by a professional how to throw a proper punch that’s effective, and doesn’t break any bones. But if I stood in front a punching bag long enough without supervision, I’d still figure it out. And while I am partial to the illiterate galaxy theory, can you imagine Galactic YouTube/Facebook/etc??? Sure, Luke’s only other interests in life were hunting womp rats from his speeder, but that’s like most rural boys I know with four wheelers. But what do the kids in the urban areas do all day if not stare at the screens all around them, just like ours?? (This is also a hard thing to conceive in Star Wars, because Luke and his womp rats are the only references to a leisure activity that isn’t gambling I can remember in 11 movies. Oh except Dejarik, but I think that can be played for money. Does Artoo gamble????) But I can just IMAGINE the click bait, and special elixirs offering to give you Force powers!
To be honest, the idea that there wasn’t some sort of parallel black market Force education going on wholly unrelated to either Jedi or Sith is laughable to me. Honestly, tell me those stories. Something like the Hedge witches in The Magicians.
Again, they may not rise to the level of Galaxy ruling warlords, but the people that they can grow into without guidance is bad enough that I think the Jedi’s decision to just abandon those they find too hard to teach is downright negligent and immoral.
@76 Even if it worked, Force-sensitive beings would still be born into a Jedi-less galaxy. Plagueis acknowledged the flaw, but he felt that in the absence of the Jedi and their ‘indoctrination’, these nobodies would pose no serious problem to the Sith.
What makes that truly poetic, is that by violating Jedi doctrine, Anakin created the somebody who did pose a serious problem to the Sith.
@80/Aeryl: Okay, fair point that there could be less reputable ways to develop the ability. I guess it’s been portrayed in different ways over the course of the franchise. Luke never showed any hint of Force powers until Obi-Wan showed him how to start tapping into them, and Leia never showed any sign of hers until the sequel trilogy. So it’s not a guarantee that someone with latent Force powers would stumble upon them and develop them independently. They might go through their whole lives never knowing they had them, just letting them atrophy. But you have a point that some others have manifested those abilities instinctively, and in those cases it’s more of a risk. I haven’t seen The Mandalorian yet, but I’m guessing Grogu has shown at least some Force ability, since modern productions tend to go more in that direction than the Luke/Leia direction.
@83: To be fair, we never really saw Luke before the movies except for that one scene in Rebels and as a baby in RotS. There was an old EU book where Luke explains that he was once punished by Uncle Vernon (er–Owen) for knowing the spanner was under the couch, even though he didn’t know how he knew. And while that is no longer canon, it doesn’t preclude that people have conceived of Luke showing Force-Sensitivity before the movies. Luke takes for granted that bulls-eying womprats is something easy, but Wedge, an experienced pilot, thinks hitting a two-meter target is impossible even for a computer.
At any rate, hard disagree about Leia. She did sense Luke’s message in ESB. And while I won’t die on this particular hill if you want to argue that was all Luke, I still think she had to be receptive in order to hear it. And what made Luke think to try Leia after Ben didn’t answer him? Again, argue it was Luke’s powers if you want, HOWEVER, in RotJ, when Luke reveals to Leia that they’re siblings, she says, “I know. Somehow, I’ve always known.” So I think that while neither have them have displayed *active* powers like making things float through the air, I think Leia absolutely displayed Force-Sensitivity in the original trilogy.
Now, I have no real opinion on whether this makes them dangerous without training, or whether Grogu, who did have some training, could “let his powers fade.”
@85/crzydroid: “At any rate, hard disagree about Leia. She did sense Luke’s message in ESB. And while I won’t die on this particular hill if you want to argue that was all Luke, I still think she had to be receptive in order to hear it.”
I really don’t think that was the intention at the time TESB was made, since the retcon about Leia being Luke’s sister hadn’t happened yet, no matter what Lucas later pretended. And I would say that the very existence of the Jedi mind trick makes it implicit that Jedi can use their mental abilities on people who aren’t Force-sensitive. There’s no reason to assume that wouldn’t include telepathy.
“And what made Luke think to try Leia after Ben didn’t answer him?”
Why wouldn’t he? He was trying to reach someone on the Falcon to come rescue him. He didn’t know Lando, and presumably the droids couldn’t sense his thoughts, so that left Leia or Chewbacca, and Leia’s the one he was closer to. I mean, in the first two movies, Luke and Leia were presented as love interests, with TESB having Han horn in to make it a romantic triangle. (I think I rather resented Han at the time for trying to steal Luke’s girl.) So it was obvious why Leia would the first person on Luke’s psychic speed-dial.
“when Luke reveals to Leia that they’re siblings, she says, “I know. Somehow, I’ve always known.””
That hardly proves Force ability. It could just be intuition, or a physical recognition of their resemblance. It could be pheromones cuing her in that they’re related. Or she could just be imagining it. There are a lot of ways to interpret that line.
“I think Leia absolutely displayed Force-Sensitivity in the original trilogy.”
Even if she did, that’s not what this conversation is about. We’re not talking about whether or not someone has Force potential. We’re talking about whether it’s a good idea for someone who definitely does have Force potential to be left untrained. And my point is that having an untrained, latent ability that you never learn how to use is less dangerous than having an ability that you’ve been training since childhood to master.
I mean, if I’d committed to those piano lessons my father insisted on, I could be a professional musician or composer by now. Instead, I can’t play any musical instrument and I’ve largely forgotten how to read or write sheet music. Training matters hugely to how well you can wield an ability. That is what I think Ahsoka’s reasoning is behind advising against training Grogu — that untrained Force ability is less dangerous than trained Force ability. Of course, as Aeryl points out, someone could develop a self-taught ability fairly well through practice, but it’s equally possible that they just wouldn’t try, that they’d choose to follow a different path and leave that potential undeveloped, like I did with music. They’d go through life with a low-level Force sensitivity but wouldn’t go around waving lightsabers and choking people with their minds, because they never committed to learning how.
I wonder if it’s something like the Wheel of Time where some women are born with ‘the spark’ and even learn to harness it before Aes Sedai (basically the equivalent of Jedi for our intents and purposes) find them (in fact, a sizeable number will die in the process) and have things like healing skill, weather sense and even perhaps teach themselves how to spy/compel others without totally realizing what they are doing. However there’s another subset of women who have the ability to be taught.
Anyway, from a storytelling perspective I think Leia’s always knowing was probably intended to be a hint about Force abilities even if there are other explanations. Especially since the context of the conversation is Luke telling Leia she has powers.
@65 – thank you, yes, that is my general rant about the way they portrayed Ahsoka’s leaving the Jedi. Even though it was ripe to have her leave for something like Barriss’s reasons (although of course Barriss takes the wrong approach). But instead they leaned into my least favorite trope which is when we the viewers know things the characters don’t, but we still are supposed to blame those characters. It’s not a good look for a group to shield its own from prosecution just because they are one of their own. Tarkin was obviously manipulating some of it too but I also remember Ahsoka getting caught in some suspicious behavior that any reasonable person would find suspicious. I agree though that there’s an element of the fandom that seems to kind of delight in casting the Jedi as basically equivalent to the Sith and getting what they deserved. And while they were flawed and the prequel trilogy is in some ways an exploration of that, I don’t go that far.
@67 – agreed, I’ve always enjoyed Filoni’s interviews and it’s clear he respects what Lucas created and is at least trying to stay true to that although he’ll still try new things and go in new directions, and in some aspects is an improvement.